Finally we get to the battleships!

RATTLESNAKE
Gallente Battleship Bonus: 10% bonus to kinetic and thermal missile damage (was 10% drone damage and hitpoints)
Caldari Battleship Bonus: 4% bonus to all shield resistances
Role Bonus: 275% bonus to heavy and sentry drone damage and hitpoints (was 50% bonus to Cruise missile and Torpedo max velocity)

Slot layout: 6H, 7M, 6L; 0 turrets, 5 launchers(+1)
Fittings: 10000 PWG, 710 CPU
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(-75) / 175(-225)

It would interest me to know how many people relied on using light drones on a battleship platform, and for what.

You can still load light drones. Yeah, they lost their bonuses, but they didn't go away. And you still have several slots for Drone Damage Amplifiers to pump them up for such a niche use.

Perhaps you guys misunderstood my statement.

You know, this would is a bit like folks complaining if the didnt let my Mach fit small guns, but buffed the crap out the big ones XoD

Well, it really is a bit silly.

It's not like they're hard done by and if the bonused lights made or broke the boat, you're probably doing it wrong.

NOTE:- NOWHERE IN THIS POST IS A REQUEST FOR A BUFF. (In capitals for the benefit of those who find it hard to read.)

He is pointing out, where things went wrong and how to fix it. Without making it any more a WTFPwnm mobile than ccp already made it.

So WTF, did you read it or what

I have read the original post and wonder if we have read the same one??

Yes the rattlesnake has been given additional damage to missiles, that is clearly stated.clear as day.
Fitting RLML to the rattlesnake is of course an option,a pretty dumb one though. and fitting them to the Gila is the only sensible fit without T2 heavy precision missiles.yeah, thats the only fit, no choices there. I see no request for bonused superlight drones., just standard bonused drones with exactly the same hitpoints and effective drones as presently there. So what are you on about.?

He does not deny it will be a good ship, he talks about the whole drone system and the mechanics of drones in depth to try explain to people who don't use them i guess, or just trying to be heard over the crap, you are completely ignoring that and the worries he has. He is not the only one, they will be a bloody pain to use, why the hell use such screwed up drones anyway. I dont know about the new sentries, 2 better ones instead of 5? Just have to try those, but drones overall are now no fun and crappy after this

He is pointing out, where things went wrong and how to fix it. Without making it any more a WTFPwnm mobile than ccp already made it.

So WTF, did you read it or what

Ok, you have clearly read it, thank you for that, just to focus on a couple of points to clear them up. You may not have realised but the Gila drone bay has dropped to 20m3 that is 4 drones, hence the 200% bonus to lights to make it 8 effective drones rather than 7.5 ok there is a percentage that makes it exactly the same, I am sure CCP rise does not need me to tell him what it is. No drone is expected to gain more damage than currently in my proposals

4 drones with +200% damage are 12 drones' worth. Currently to my best knowledge the Gila does the damage of 7.5 with lights.
[...]
If he wanted it without a typo and without a buff, he would have said 87.5%. Sure, it's not a pretty number, but nore is 37.5% and people can live with it on their active repair ships.

Regarding the rest, nothing regarding the superdrones is effected by my post other than preventing their use with the MJD a pain in the arse, dealable with but what is gained by making their use unpleasant for the sake of it,mthere are some who want to turn the game to ****, and a pain just for jollies, but I do not think you are one of them.

If CCP intend to balance the Rattlesnake to be more desirable, as I believe they do, and they say they do, does anyone really believe that making errors to deliberately make the ship unpleasant to fly with drones, would be the way they would do it.

Let's not let it get us drawn away from the points made.

Light drones are part of the primary weapon system, you launch different drones just as in a missile ship you launch different types of missile.

Get a life, clown. Are you even smart enough to know how pathetic you really are?
It must really suck to be you. I'm certainly happy that I don't have your life. Thanks.
0/10

Gallente Battleship Skill Bonus:
10% bonus to drone hitpoints and damage per skill level
How many times do you have to read simple stuff to understand it, oh I get it ...*nah nah nah can't hear you*

LOL. Look at this loser. He can't even figure out that the Rattlesnake is losing its 50% bonus on light and medium drones.
A good example of how stupid you have to be to claim the Rattlesnake is fine.

I am not sure of the point you are making, are you saying that we are imagining there was a bonus currently?
Or are you saying we have underestimated how much we are losing?
Or is there a finer point we are not understanding?

You don't have to with the new Rattlesnake, either. It has a full rack of launchers now.

Training times are never taken into account and with good reason. With the resist bonus you can get away quite happily with a 4 slot tank. With the drone buffs you also wont be fitting drone mods in the same way too.

Possibly you are not aware that the new rattlesnake does not have many utility slots in the normal understanding of the word.
In a 6 slot ship, if you have 4 launchers or turrets (4 in total for some) then one has what is widely described as 2 utility slots.
If suddenly you are allowed to fit a launcher, you have one as you now can fit 5
6-5=1
You have already given up an item that was in a utility slot. Hurting whatever you used it for (99% of cases a DLA)
Fit an armor repper you either give up the last DLA which would be an act of a complete swivel eyed loony, or you gimp the missiles.

No one has accused you of being a swivel eyed loony.

What!
you turn answering that question into that!

I will give the benefit of the doubt and not automatically assume that you are deliberately goading, so I will answer. ( but I will probably be proved wrong to do so)

how on earth can you compare the domi's guns to this ship, secondary to main. rail guns to missiles too? apples to oranges as well?

You seem to be missing the entire point.

Well, as for being able to use either of the weapons systems on the ship as the primary, and to be able select and fit and make compromises for the appropriate type is something:-

THAT NOT A SINGLE PERSON HAS DISAGREED WITH!

It is just that The issues that have already been Identified, prevent that being a reasonable choice.

RATTLESNAKE

Fittings: 10000 PWG, 710 CPU

Try two missile rigs and, since this is a pirate ship, maybe use a T2 for one of them.

I hope you are 12

With all the points that have been raised, I would love to see a dev response...

To be clear... I like the superdrone in concept, and feel it is balanced with improved damage at the cost of increased vunerability to ewar.

I simply dislike how this has been applied to the battleship. There is no increased dps with it at this level, leaving it weak IMO given the increased vunerabilities. If we were getting 10+ effective drones rather than 7.5 I would have few misgivings.

The idea of dropping the versatility of drones and making them more comparable in perforformance to revular ships guns is a fine thing... But the superdrone needs to be powerful indeed to overcome the downside of being destructible. On the frigate level
*snip*
The Gila is in a similar position...personally I dont feel that medium drones underperform so much below lights in application that the lack of a light drone bonus is a serious issue. A bonus to get lights up to 7.5 or even 8 in space would not be out of place, but it does not cripple the ship. I do feel that mediums are fragile enough compared to what easily hits them that they may need reevaluation in the near future, however.

So I think they should strengthen the superdrone bonus to be greater dps than other BS drone platforms to make up for the increased vunerability inherant to having fewer drones, and perhaps the rest can be ironed out in a more comprehensive drone review... But at no point do I think this is a poor idea for tbe shipline.

Left at the same DPS level, the superdrone bonus does more harm than good. They will be simple to negate with some ewar, drones are far from immune to those effects they are just not normally worth the attention being only a small part of a larger package. The only real benefit is a bit more resilience to damage, and with npc aggro the ewar that npcs apply will be an order of magnitude more of a problem.

Drones have somewhat less DPS potential than other weapon systems, but in general that is made up by their resistance to ewar effects due to being several smaller parts. They also carry the penalties of being destructable and ships designed for them lose a slot. On the Rattlesnake you lose most of the resistance to ewar in exchange for a minor boost to survivability, which is just frankly not enough. It makes almost no difference to heavies who will still get webbed and killed with their bloated signitures, and sentries wont see enough boost to keep out long enough to make a difference. With the loss of the bonus to smaller drone types you also lose a healthy chunk of the application edge drones usually enjoy.

The superdrone bonus needs raised to similar performance gains of the smaller hull sizes. The Worm enjoys 1.5 DPS of any other frigate platform, and the Gila nearly doubles the DPS of any other medium drone platform to make up for the drawbacks of the superdrone concept. Breaking even for a minor survivability boost is not enough unless they want to add a bonus to make them immune to ewar effects.

The problem of webbing a heavy drone isn't significant either. You're only likely to use heavies against a nearby tackled or very slow target, and the delay in damage application produced by webbing the incoming drone is generally minimal.

It'd be a lot more serious if you have range-bonused webs or a target at range, but in those cases you should be using sentries

A target can with a single web just about negate the dps of a single heavy.

And I think the thing about a target webbing a single heavy drone to cut incoming DPS by keeping it at range is not realistic. A webbed Ogre will decelerate to 700 m/s, meaning that a tackled target about 10 km away will not be able to significantly delay its arrival to activation range.

Yes, non-tackled targets at longer ranges, particularly those with long-range webs, would be able to delay the drone to a useful extent. But the Rattler should normally be using sentries in those situations, not heavies. So I don't think it's a huge problem.

I'm mostly talking PVP here, but the principle should still hold for PVE.

large shield booster? really? and you need a 5% implant to fit it? so basically you cannot fit an xlarge shield booster or a x-large ancillary without a coprocesor; yea, i see, t no cpu problems at all...

how about fitting torpedo launchers? oh right who need torpedos when we have rapid launchers, lol

Well, the PG req is easy enough on torp launchers. The CPU is going to be what kills you. What sort of torp fit did you want to see?

You lose 33% drone damage and gain 50% missile damage bonuse on any launcher plus another launcher. The new rattle will have more damage than the old one vs frigs.

Then we agree. I'm not just talking about using lights and mediums in missions either. The bonused mediums are the best choice at combating cruisers when you do not want to remain stationary.

Generally I dont bother shooting frigs unless I have to as part of a mission. Use the sentries, if they get close then cruise with lights wont have many issues.

Exactly as I have already suggested.

The ship looks fine except for the weak Superdrone bonus.

All things being equal, that bonus would be the same as given to the Gila, and would put 12 effective drones in space. Obviously that would be hilariously OP, given even Heavy and Sentry application abilities.

No, I don't ignore that. It's one of the inherent drawbacks of the superdrone concept above that of the regular drone bonus.

As I pointed out, that would be hilariously OP. Did you ignore the part further down my post where I laid out the compromises of fewer effective drones but maintaining the full HP increase of the superdrone concept, in essence mirroring the deviation of the frigate end of the spectrum? Or did you have no real comment to add to the discussion and just wanted to get a zinger in?

The Worm is greaty improved by the superdrone bonus, as is the Gila. The Rattlesnake pays the full cost, but gains few of the benefits without an increase in performance and HP of the superdrones over the standard drone bonus. The missile bonus is no stronger than any other ship that splits bonuses with drones. The nearest equivalent is the Navy Domi, which sports 6 turrets with a 25% bonus (6*1.25=7.5) vs (5*1.5=7.5), while the bonuses on the Amarr line are harder to quantify as they apply to Ewar. Thus no compromise is needed in the missiles for the ship to enjoy the equivalent to a full drone bonus with it's launchers.

Exactly. The superdrone bonus has been poorly scaled to the battleship class.

I don't feel a somewhat significant DPS increase on large drones would put the ship out of line, and while the 17.5 effective weapons that allowing a bonus of 10 effective drones results in sounds overly strong, it is offset by those weapons being drones with their generally lower DPS, the a split weapon setup with the inherent difficulties of fitting (which is further exacerbated by losing a slot to the drone bonus), and the option of fitting lighter launchers to take advantage of the ship's flexibility.

That said, there is merit in a lesser DPS increase so long as HP of the drones gets the full 60% bonus. This is what happened at the frigate end of the spectrum in reverse, where DPS increased by 60%, but the HP increased only slightly.

CCP Rise 10 - ISD Ezwal 7. As it should be.
It would be sad if I happen to outpost a Dev in his own feedback thread, as that would mean it keeps on derailing.

I want to see the statistics for who has had the most posts removed.

ISD, please lock this thread. Permanently.

CCP Rise has demonstrated - and commented on - the fact that he is somewhat averse to posting in ... hostile threads such as this one. I don't blame him. More to the point though, I think that with the new SiSi mirror so close at hand that it's more likely he's going to wait until the proposed changes can actually be tested before addressing anything.

If you're willing to settle for ISD Ezwald, on the other hand, track records so far seem to indicate that he'll probably be posting within the next 32hrs.

"Hoping for the most"? You may have to educate me on wha-

...oh, I think I get it.

You're saying you'd rather not "settle" for something when what you really want is something else. Am I right?

Seems like everyone now realizes the new Rattlesnake sucks except Kaarous Aldurald.

yea but you are just another one of the clowns spamming this thread with unsupported statements. Who can take you seriously?

Lol. Defenders. Yes, if you're going there you're through the bottom of the barrel and digging a hole.

you will only lose heavy drones less frequenly, lights and mediums will pop faster than ever. loss of missile velocity bonuses inreases the time your missiles take to impact, increasing the time it takes to switch between targets.

just because you can equip light missiles on a rattlesnake, doesn't mean its a good idea.

like i said, there is no good reason to fly a rattlesnake.

Sad that i have to explain this **** to you. Of course nobody uses defenders missiles in pvp. Don't be stupid.

rats shoot defenders at my rattlers cruise missiles now but they rarely seem to actually destroy any.

GÇó 4x launchers and 2x DLAs
GÇó 3x hydraulic to actually get a bit more than the 50% missile velocity bonus lost
GÇó 3x DDA, 2x DOM and 1x ballistic control in the lows (even with only one BC you're still way ahead)
GÇó 1x MJD, 1-2x target painters and 4-5x mids assigned to the tank of your choice

We're apparently getting a missile-based Pirate line at some point (maybe announced next weekend at FanFest?), and I would really love to see a solely drone-based Pirate class (Rogue drones anyone?).

Yes, but it's hardly a "valid" concern given the rest. Plus it is likely an improvement on today as you'll be slinging more missiles.

Really its more the insanity of such a massive buff and saying ....bu...bu....deeeefenders!!!!

Ok now the RS CPU is too tight ...seriously u guys never stop .

they gave u a ship with great bonus ,a ton of versality and fitting capability,new super drones bonused for long range ,and fifth launcher ,the biggest cpu on the line and u guys whinning on ur ability to deal with frigates ....

Ok maybe we could discuss on the missile bonus but except that ,uve been quite blessed with ur change

The RS has and won't have any problem to fit a torp set up but need skills to make it fit or an expensive gist large SB and thats even before the new faction drone module or faction BCS

x2 launcher rig t1
x1 overclocking unit rig t1
X5 torpedo launcher t2
x1 dla t2
x3 fed trackinglinks
x1 Mjd or mwd
x2 pith A hardener
x 1 gist x large
x4 DDa t2
x2 BCS t2

it fits with ADWU lvl 4 and launcher rig lvl 4 ... u need a + 5 % electronic implant ,the fit cost a rough 700 M not that expensive for a pirate BS

U've asked for a torp set i gave u one i never said it ll be efficient but if u want u can fit it .Machariel for example can't fit that kind of setup with 1400 mm u need a full genolution set and a + 6 % grid implant ....and just in case ur free to replace fed link with tp and replace launcher rigs by ccc :)

But the RS can do that maybe not recommanded but he can the mach 1400 cant ...

As the drone-fanatic that I am, I like to use drope-ships for all tasks i could possibly use them for and I am always curious which drone-ship is the best for which task.

1. I do have to say, that I dislike the regular t1-Dominix still beeing the superior boat for drone application all around. .

. A 7. highslot would at least make it possible for using it as a decent spider-rep-platform which would mean more dead Rattles and higher prices. Maybe this repping-possibility would make it a little more viable for incursions as well. the 7. highslot would only be used for the 2. drone link augmentor. so u dont have to gimp the rigs for the 5. launcher, would that really be a problem? After all you still have the problems of drones beeing vulnerable and missiles needing time to reach, Also it could be used pvp-wise for neuting/nosing.
b) for 0.0-ratting you pretty much need at least 80-90km drone-control range. (when you warp into a sight u come out at +-25km). so if ur unlucky and warp to 70 u have the npcs at 95km. if you warp to 50 you can have them at 25km. (the missing bonus for smaller drones will make this a big problem) sadly you cant just warp to 60. therefore a 2. drone range module is not really discussable, therefore robbing the 5. launcher hardpoint his usefullness.
c) I can see how noone wants the Rattlesnake to outdps the other pirate-BS in terms of max-dmg. However an added highslot would not add any higher potential for max dmg. It would only enable the ship to do what you clearly want it to do. Otherwise I would like a CCP statement on how the 7. highslot would make the Rattlesnake unbalanced/op for any specific task as I don't think that's th case..

Stop whinning ur fine both in terms of dps tank ,fitability and overall cost as the fit linked is only 1b2 ,thats the price of the hull for some other Pirate bs .

Well , again as proved u dont have any CPU issue

U've asked for a torp set i gave u one i never said it ll be efficient

And for gods sakes type full words, reading that nearly made my eyes bleed. It's not a text message, this isn't 1996

1368 DPS, 177k EHP with 9x overloaded ASB charges. As brawlers go, that's pretty good.

The problem only really arises when you try to jam torps on, but with the current stats there's very little reason to actually use torps... So, fix torps pls?

i'm bored.

You have got to be pretty dumb to not comprehend that the fact that the faster your missiles, the faster you will be able to switch targets after a salvo.

See these are the kinds of retards i have to argue with so some dev doesn't take them seriously because god knows these devs don't seem to understand how these game mechanics play out in reality.

It funny you made up all these dumb scenarios and excuses that you think somehow refutes my argument.

Fact remains that with loss of missile velocity bonus, missiles will take longer to reach their targets and thus increase the time it takes for you to switch to a new target after one blows up.

I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. As always I let some edge cases stay.
Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil!

You aren't smart enough to debate realistically. Amazing that you still can't comprehend how a missile velocity bonus helps overall DPS. Get lost.

I am not sure what the missiles getting there sooner benefits... I always considered velocity more like a range bonus with a tiny extra benefit.

As no one is taking you even a little seriously now.

done

Missile speed probably reduces DPS loss to NPC defenders. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3408590#post3408590

Also, missile speed helps reduce DPS loss to volley counting. Yes, you can memorize how many volleys it will take and/or can let the sentries apply the coup de grace in order to avoid wasting missile volleys, but meh.

Anyway, yes the RS will have more DPS than a Golem, but, due to overkill, damage types, coordination, and missile speed, I doubt you'll get 100% of that extra DPS.

Honestly, I don't get why people are making a big deal out of the velocity bonus. I run missions just fine with un-velocity bonused RHMLs, and I'm happy they'll be getting a damage bonus.

I couldn't think of a different category for the few complaining. If you have a better one, I'll use it.

You are the guy who flooded the thread with your alts to destroy epicurus.

I think all of us are aware of how missile speed ties into DPS:
* damage projection- if you're out of range, you do zero DPS,
* potentially reduces DPS loss due to defenders
* reduces DPS loss due to volley miscounting
* reduces DPS loss by hitting the target before you explode (if you explode, your in-flight missiles stop tracking and miss)
* allows you to land that first volley faster, including after reloading, which could allow you to hit before the target's repair cycle kicks in.
* allows you to mount DPS and/or DPS application rigs in place of missile speed/flight time rigs

I think that all of us are aware that DPS application is just as important as raw DPS, and that missile speed is one means of damage application.

I also think that all of us are guilty of using fuzzy terminology once in a while, as well as being overly pedantic in our criticism about it.

The point is still, that whatever "overall DPS" increases you would get with a 1000% velocity per level bonus would still pale in comparison to the dps you achieve with a 1% damage per level bonus, especially with cruise missiles.

I hate sentries most because I always end up using the Amarr ones. And you all know how much Amarr drones suck. The Gallente ones have too small a range to hit anything, because they can't track well enough to hit cruisers and frigates that are in range, and battleships never get that close unless they start that close and I could just be using ogres instead.

Generally speaking, ogres beat gardes because they can fly to the end of garde range in about 5 seconds and they track a lot better while doing almost as much damage.

funny you had to get on an alt to agree with yourself

OK - it's time for a serious Rattlesnake discussionGǪ All the Pirate Faction ships (including the new Mordu's Legion line) have an EW specialtyGǪ

100mbit bandwidth, still limited to 5 drones. Read the EW bonus again - it provides enhanced target spectrum disruption while rendering the activating ship immune. The more targeting ships - the more likely they lose their target lock. And it has an ECM bonus - but not one that outshines the Scorpion. The Armageddon has an EW bonus, so that's not entirely accurate.

I fail to see how this is fundamentally any different from the proposed iteration of the Rattlesnake that CCP Rise has put forward - except that the new Rattlesnake will neither except at PvP or PvE, and most likely fall out of favor with players quickly.

Yeah, one less missile launcher - but it's going to be dropped anyway for a second DDA in missions.

Fair enough. I've never been keen on the hybrid dual-weapon setups anyway.

Notice how none of those 3 have bonused small or medium signature radius guns?

Sure more paper DPS, but why on earth bother with it, without flying it one can see just how management heavy it has become.

Hmm, tradeoffs, if we assume just cruise sniping and just bs, how many tp, radius, and exp velocity stuff would one need?

I strongly suspect the people complaining about it haven't actually tried this kind of fit and have been using it as a passive brick drone boat exclusively

Case in-point: while the new Gecko doesn't make or break the Rattlesnake, I think we can all agree that it puts the "Hero" drone bonus into the "+" column for this rebalance.

I guess you fit rapid light launchers to shoot the frigates...

I merely suggested shooting the frigates. Maybe drones are primary and missiles secondary.

I think we can all agree that it puts the "Hero" drone bonus into the "+" column for this rebalance.

Hardly, I am afraid you are missing the point.
any ship can be flown
Some require a much more hands on approach, switching weapons for range,launching and monitoring drones, recalling drones, repeatedly, switching ammo, switching painters, switching drones, switching tracking scripts. etc etc.
Some you press F1

So why would one fly the rattlesnake when there are better ships, that require less faffing about with?

The rattlesnake has ended up LESS good than it was before.

But when very many people have expressed an opinion that they do not like the changes for very many reasons, picking on One item and saying fly differently and get used to it, will not convince them it is now lovely.

This was a ship that was not a popular pirate ship.

Picking on little bits of their posts and telling them they are wrong and doing eve wrong, will not be a persuasive argument.

You do seem to want the ship to go into production exactly as proposed, If you are successful in convincing CCP that everyone is wrong , and it is wonderful, I hope you enjoy the ship as you will probably be one of a very small number who choose to fly it.

It's almost a Navy Scorpion. It still lacks a mid and the ability to apply all damage types. From a PvE standpoint, EM damage is probably a prerequisite in 1/3 to 1/2 of available missions. I'd be more impressed if they gave it 6 launchers.

I am of the opinion That CCP wished these Guristas ships to be mobile platforms using Drones and missiles at far closer range than occurs currently. However the fear of offending sentry users forced a poor compromise.
Instead if having drones (of whatever size) applying damage to all targets, We now have similar heavies (reduced number balanced to same properties overall) and sentries that just are underwhelming and with lost effective range. (I do not want to get into the whole DLA is unimportant argument, either way it effects things)

If this ship was unchanged apart from having mobile drones that applied damage across all classes. Then the ship would have a character. As it is it is neither Fish or fowl. Things without definition or focus rarely succeed.

90% reduction in missile projection and a 200% bonus to missile velocity to make it viable in contested incursions?

Mordu's Legion for the win!

I think you may be right, But wait for the explosion If CCP announce it is armour Tanked.

It may not have an armor bonus - it just may be geared towards an armor tank.

Armor may make more sense with a PvP setup - hard to say. But imagine if this had 8 lows, 8 highs and 4 mids. And 20% armor resistances...

I'm a little confused here. A Target Painter, which I am presuming you are referring to as a TP, increases Signature Radius of the targeted ship. You are stating 'where it is needed' vs battleships.
I would have thought increasing the size of the sig on a battleship less important than that of a frigate.

If you actually read the post you are quoting from - He says in his update 2 Faction TP and the Snake still requires extra volleys.. Rigs and a TP just aren't gonna cut it.
I think you might want to read complete posts before using them as quotes.

Honestly, both are a good choice as far as it goes, but with the drone system it has, cruise missiles, as it is going to be anchored in one place most of the time.

Give the Snake a Pvp bonus (7.5% to RHML) - Let it be a true Pirate Battleship - Let it Fight and Die as well and along side other ships in its class.

Role Bonuses;
150% to Drone Damage and Hitpoints - 100m Drone Bandwidth 200m Drone Bay - Can only launch 2 of any specific drone size or type at a time.

It has great potential, but honestly, up close and personal, on a ship that cannot handle all target classes with sentries, heavies, and missiles? Seriously?

So if one fits for a different missile than cruise, you want a mid range drone, that does not tie you to one place.
That is not there in this proposal.

Yes, it does look like heavy missiles will suit this boat best, whether rapid heavy or just heavy will depend on whether one needs to front load damage.

So we really need to look at how much damage heavy missiles apply, when setting overall balance.

Rigs make a difference. With 3xRigors, T1 cruise missiles have better damage application than non-Rigored Fury Heavies (e.g. you're using missile range rigs with the RHMLs,) so you will normally be better off with T1 cruise unless you really need the the front loaded DPS or plan on shooting a lot of frigates.

yes you got new role bonus 275# to heavy and sentry, but

see this, clearly ---- Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(-75) / 175(-225)
you can only use 2 heavies and sentries

At this point, we're all trying to figure out what the Summer Rattesnake is going to be great at. And we're sure it has to be really good at something because it's a pirate ship with a huge missile bonus and super-drones! Can I get an Amen!?!

What resistance to E-war?

Let me give you people a scenario of a way the Snake is played other than a sniper, a role done better by other ships.

Any mission.

The fit is Torpedos with 1 target painter, giving you greater dps against Battleships than cruise missiles. With this fit I have a 30000 hp shield tank with ~187hp per sec shield regen.

Nobody really cares what you say. You discredit yourself by the sheer volume of your posting.

I understand you guys don't have lives and all. But it is not cool to make people like your girlfriend or people that come to the door wait 15 minutes or whatever because you have to finish something you are doing in a video game.

Or if you want to stick with heavy drones, T1 and T2 drones will have the same base DPS (with T2's only advantage being the 8-10% from drone specialization,) so you can use cheaper, more expendable T1s with minimal DPS loss.

Hah! We both know that you are being a moron and refusing to admit you are wrong.

oh, so you are saying all frigates orbit at close range now?

Apparently, time spent on the forums seems to correlate with detachment from reality.

my fit changes from mission to mission. That is the nice thing about the snake, its versatile. Not so much with these proposed changes. Not even enough drone bay space to fit salvage drones. I really want to kick whatever ****** did this to the Snake. Less people will be flying it than ever once the "oohh shiney" factor wears off.

Post your fit, Rod.

You fail at reading comprehension once again. The only time sentries are used is for battleships past 50km.

You are really clueless about how the Snake is played, aren't you?

Which would you chose when facing neuts/vamps?

untill you get neuted/vamped.

Stoic, so despite being inferior in combat, the Machariel maintains an edge in isk/hr from warp speed alone?

Not sure if that's sad, hilarious, or some combination of both.

Isn't a Raven just a bit "overkill" for level 3's ?

I strongly disagree with you stoicfaux, your demonstration is only based on assumptions .You have removed the parameters from your calculations who would have proved otherwise .
-Comparing two different prop mod
-No cost comparison between the two fits
-you took for granted than a 3 warp speed rigs Machariel would be viable
-You didn't took Ewar immunity as a factor .
-Same mission time for the two hulls

Please if you want to prove your point give us a machariel fit to compare with , you 'll soon realize the issues

-Well yes we are comparing a mach to a vargur operating time and isk/hour ratio and yes Ewar can have a pretty big importance in operating time .

Also the Vindi and Mach have more total slots than the other ships. And everyone hates the assymetrical turrts on the mach.

Heres a quick fix for them all:

I had already adressed the problem ,but so far we didn't receive any favorable answer.

Na, you're an idiot. It has only been recentyl outclassed with the rebalancing that has happened to other ships and the omni and resist nerfs.

Post your fit, Rod.

Post your fit.

Rattlesnake need not have anything taken away from it at all. It only needed buffs.

The loss of missile velocity bonus is a huge blow to the Rattlesnakes versatility and viability.

A passive shield tanked brawler should be using torpedoes and have bonuses to all its drones.

he must be trolling.

This is the original post, that all the effort has been expended to ensure it is never read.
It is not controversial, it simply discusses some concerns and suggestions of how they can be addressed.
There were many before and many after discussing each of the points. And better solutions were found.
For some reason that upset some interests. Read for yourself and decide.

Note much discussion took place after this discussing the points until the trolling became impossible.

There were many before and many after discussing each of the points. And better solutions were found.

For some reason that upset some interests. Read for yourself and decide.

Yet it is the only ship worth using heavies on.

You mean people use torps on anything but bombers?

Yes, the example was to show that the claimed overpowered DPS actually could not exist when application, tank, and hybrid were all sought at the same time.

The end result will be where the ship becomes a missile boat, with drones regulated to a minor supporting role.
The problem is that other missile boats just do it better. Far far better.

The post clearly said that that fit would be required IF one was to fit for the claimed OMG so overpowered figures that were being used as a justification.

That is what it would take to APPLY that damage, and as I clearly stated that would be a VERY VERY BAD THING.

Is that clearer for you?

Interesting, I cannot achieve that on TQ currently, without unacceptable compromises.
Your personal skill and experience, naturally make this possible for you, that is a credit to you.
The two questions I ask, are would this be practical for the majority of current Rattlesnake pilots, and are there not better ships that do not require such compromises?
Because whilst pirate ships are not meant for the unskilled, they should not require mastery, to be functional?

Says the guy responding to every I post, TWICE! once with insults, and then editing it into something somewhat less likely to be deleted.

L2Context.

50% DPS bonused cruise missiles do much more damage than velocity bonused torps. With greater range and better application.

There literally is no downside.

I am comparing cruise missile damage to torpedo damage.

The issue is that things are being unnecessarily taken away from a ship that is considered to be UP.

And in this case, the nerfs far exceed the buffs.

The facts prove you wrong.

Because light drones, apparently.

All the loot is nearby, and not scattered like it is when you are sniping, you don't have to remain stationary to deal your damage either and can be moving towards your objective.

there are many missions and situations where a torpedo Rattlesnake is preferable. Its far easier to manage than a Golem and you can deal with neut/nos better.

CCL members, myself included, do not have the ability to ban people from the forum. CCP however has.
Rest assured that if we find multiple rule infractions by the same poster, CCP will get notified in full.
At CCP's discretion this can lead to consequences for the poster in question.

I hope that clarifies it a bit.

Ishtars are also a horrible problem, you're shooting right into their T2 resists in both long range and short range engagements.

CCP Rise 10 - ISD Ezwal 7. As it should be.
It would be sad if I happen to outpost a Dev in his own feedback thread, as that would mean it keeps on derailing.

People are mostly saying they don't like the changes.

Sorry, heavy drones still suck even with the changes. Sentries aren't very good on the Rattlesnake either since the omni nerf.

1 web or warp disruption locks down all your drone dps or it gets killed outright because its so much easier to apply DPS to 1 target than 5.

It will be amusing to wait and see how many people jump onto this "amazing" pvp ship you guys keep raving about, because it is all hearsay at this point. I haven't seen anyone credible saying its good or any threads about how awesome it is going to be at all. People are mostly saying they don't like the changes.

you need to read the thread again, the vast majority of people are complaining about the changes. Burden of proof is on you. Who is credible that is saying the Rattlesnake is going to be "oh so amazing" in pvp? no one.

"A Caracal with three BCUs, and T2 missiles will do 409 DPS frontloaded, 227 continuous."

I'm very glad you decided to not ruin the Rattlesnake but why did the missile velocity bonus need to be removed?

I'm also dissapointed with the reduce drone bay and therefore reduced versatility, although I guess I should be thankful it can still use sentries.

The missile velocity bonus didn't make this ship too strong either. Nothing needed to be taken away but I suppose it could be worse.

The Rattlesnakes damage increase should have come from more high/mid/low slots.

I immortalized your idiocy in my sig so people will just know right off the bat that you are too stupid to be taken seriously.

In reference to the Rattlesnake:
If you passive tank, you're doing it wrong. - Kaarous Aldurald

other pirate faction battleships have 20 slots.

concede a point for once in your life.

just stop posting, clown. Nobody can take an idiot you seriously.

I might add that the Rattlesnake isn't capable of doing any more damage with heavy or sentry drones with these changes

The Rattlesnake is the best suited battleship for passive shield tanking in the game.

Think before you post. Kaadoofus alt.

it is amazing the number of you morons who can only think in terms of DPS.

Says the person crying about drone dps.

we already have a missile pirate faction battleship.

this one has a half-assed focus on drones.

the creative possibilities of having a 400m3 drone bay are being destroyed. As is its torpedo viability. As is its effectiveness of highly useful light and medium drones.

Haven't you embarrassed yourself enough in this thread, clown? See my sig.

re-read and try again. We weren't talking about drones.

or just see my sig for laughs.

I proved him wrong.

Sentry and heavy drones are rarely used on a RS fit for what it does best, passive shield tanking.

see my sig.
You are clearly an idiot.

Does anyone here take that kid seriously?